September 2009 Weddings
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Thoughts - AZ Law

2

Re: Thoughts - AZ Law

  • image JillianAshley6:

    Before I reply...I just want to say-I emjoy debating with you-you bring excellent points to the table, and have such well thought out responses. I learn more when you talk :) haha

    I try. I like educated responses opposed to smileys that are ambiguous in meaning.

    I didn't really mean that because its not happening to me, it doesn't matter to me. It does. I have hispanic friends that would be affected by this, hispanic family, etc.

    I also know-that my hispanic family members that I have spoken to re: immigration laws actually SUPPORT this. They are here legally, went through the rigamorale to become citizens, etc. They believe (as I do) that if you live in another country citizenship in the US is a privilege that you have to earn (as I would expect if we were planning to move to another country). They carry ID on them at all times (as most people do!). Its truly not a big deal-according to them.

    Also-and correct me if I am wrong-but just because I can pass for Hispanic and choose to eat at La Bodega (one of my fav Mexican restaurants here) doesn't mean they are going to grab me as I walk out....I thought the law specifically stated that they have to have some other lawful reason for addressing you first?

     

    I agree that being a citizen is something that you should earn, and is a privilege. That is why I'm not against border patrol. I'm against someone who is lawful being unjustly arrested or racially profiled. That goes for more than just AZ.

    If they have "reasonable suspicion" that you might be here illegally, they could stop you outside of La Bodega.



    Zuma Zoom
    image
  • image JillianAshley6:

    Also-and correct me if I am wrong-but just because I can pass for Hispanic and choose to eat at La Bodega (one of my fav Mexican restaurants here) doesn't mean they are going to grab me as I walk out....I thought the law specifically stated that they have to have some other lawful reason for addressing you first?

     

    According to the stuff Mary and I forget who else posted earlier in this thread, yes, they do need to have some "reasonable" grounds for stopping you. But I think Smo's raising a good point that this means they are relying on police officers to be judicious in who they pull over and ask for papers. I am not so naive to believe that the men in blue are all comprised of such fine moral fibers. There are cops out there who abuse their power. And this kind of law is leaving a lot of that open to their interpretation. And I don't think that's a good thing necessarily.

  • image JillianAshley6:

    I also know-that my hispanic family members that I have spoken to re: immigration laws actually SUPPORT this. They are here legally, went through the rigamorale to become citizens, etc. They believe (as I do) that if you live in another country citizenship in the US is a privilege that you have to earn (as I would expect if we were planning to move to another country). They carry ID on them at all times (as most people do!). Its truly not a big deal-according to them.

    Also-and correct me if I am wrong-but just because I can pass for Hispanic and choose to eat at La Bodega (one of my fav Mexican restaurants here) doesn't mean they are going to grab me as I walk out....I thought the law specifically stated that they have to have some other lawful reason for addressing you first?

     

    To the first point, this is my experience too with my family and friends. When you are here legally, you are proud of it, and have no problem being asked for an ID.

    To the second point, yes. That is how the law is stated.

    To SMo's point of people still going through the process, but in order to naturalize you actually have to have a green card. So, again, those here illegally can't obtain green cards and, therefore, would not be going through the process of becoming a citizen.

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  • image SMorriso:

    I agree that being a citizen is something that you should earn, and is a privilege. That is why I'm not against border patrol. I'm against someone who is lawful being unjustly arrested or racially profiled. That goes for more than just AZ.

    If they have "reasonable suspicion" that you might be here illegally, they could stop you outside of La Bodega.

    I am pretty sure you have to be doing something illegal in order for them to approach you and ask for the papers. They can't approach you if you are walking out of a restaurant and look Mexican.  It was explained in the post prior.

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  • image Nunu&Eddie:
    image SMorriso:

    I agree that being a citizen is something that you should earn, and is a privilege. That is why I'm not against border patrol. I'm against someone who is lawful being unjustly arrested or racially profiled. That goes for more than just AZ.

    If they have "reasonable suspicion" that you might be here illegally, they could stop you outside of La Bodega.

    I am pretty sure you have to be doing something illegal in order for them to approach you and ask for the papers. They can't approach you if you are walking out of a restaurant and look Mexican.  It was explained in the post prior.

    Also explained in the post below,  they are relying on police officers to be judicious in who they pull over and ask for papers. According to their police reports it could be some "reasonable reason". Not using one's blinker to change lanes, going 2 miles over the limit, etc etc.

    A lot of this can be related to the movie Crash. Because it is a pretty damn good description of racism in America, it might not be all in your face, but it is there.

    Also, I would imagine if one were pulled over when you're in a rush, just to proudly show you're American enough times, it would get tiring.



    Zuma Zoom
    image
  • image JillianAshley6:

    image SMorriso:

    I agree that being a citizen is something that you should earn, and is a privilege. That is why I'm not against border patrol. I'm against someone who is lawful being unjustly arrested or racially profiled. That goes for more than just AZ.

    If they have "reasonable suspicion" that you might be here illegally, they could stop you outside of La Bodega.

    Where I could pull out my license (or if I wasn't a driver, my ID card that you get at the DMV)  and in the space of a minute or two show them I'm allowed to be here and go on with my day.

    I realize its not ideal....but neither is having someone search my bag when I go through the airport. And having some strange man look through the underwear in my suitcase is a LOT more violating than someone asking to see my id. But we suck it up and deal with it. How is this any different?

    (and again...I'm truly not trying to be rude, just debating)

     

    I don't think it is rude.

    I would imagine in most cases, it would go so far as being handcuffed, searched, stopped, etc. That would be so embarrassing and demeaning. Can you imagine? What if you ran to the grocery store and forgot your license? You could be arrested and detained. That isn't just flashing someone your card in a matter of a few minutes.

    Imagine if your kids were in the car with you. Those psychological effects on them.



    Zuma Zoom
    image
  • image SMorriso:
    image Nunu&Eddie:
    image SMorriso:

    I agree that being a citizen is something that you should earn, and is a privilege. That is why I'm not against border patrol. I'm against someone who is lawful being unjustly arrested or racially profiled. That goes for more than just AZ.

    If they have "reasonable suspicion" that you might be here illegally, they could stop you outside of La Bodega.

    I am pretty sure you have to be doing something illegal in order for them to approach you and ask for the papers. They can't approach you if you are walking out of a restaurant and look Mexican.  It was explained in the post prior.

    Also explained in the post below,  they are relying on police officers to be judicious in who they pull over and ask for papers. According to their police reports it could be some "reasonable reason". Not using one's blinker to change lanes, going 2 miles over the limit, etc etc.

    A lot of this can be related to the movie Crash. Because it is a pretty damn good description of racism in America, it might not be all in your face, but it is there.

    Also, I would imagine if one were pulled over when you're in a rush, just to proudly show you're American enough times, it would get tiring.

     All of those are illegal, and valid reasons to pull someone over. Would it get tiring? Maybe. We still don't know because it hasn't gone into effect. But if it helps curb the problem of illegal immigration in this country, then great!

     I truly don't think that this is allowing for any more racial profiling than what already exists in every single state. It is simply allowing for law enforcement to do something about it when it is discovered that someone is in the country illegally.

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  • image Nunu&Eddie:
     All of those are illegal, and valid reasons to pull someone over. Would it get tiring? Maybe. We still don't know because it hasn't gone into effect. But if it helps curb the problem of illegal immigration in this country, then great!

     I truly don't think that this is allowing for any more racial profiling than what already exists in every single state. It is simply allowing for law enforcement to do something about it when it is discovered that someone is in the country illegally.

    And also often overlooked by police. Those driving requirements are things that a white person could do 1000x times over and a Latin person could do maybe 10x and get pulled over for. That = racial profiling. You're not just pulling them over for the small thing that they normally turn a blind eye to, they are being pulled over for their race.



    Zuma Zoom
    image
  • Jillian- Children born in the US are legal citizens, even if born to illegal parents.

    In the case I mentioned before with the man from my Church, his wife was allowed to stay as a permanent resident to raise their children who had ben born here.

    And, again, we don't know how this will affect the racial profiling, if at all. So that is just an argument on speculation.

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  • image JillianAshley6:
    image SMorriso:
    image JillianAshley6:

    image SMorriso:

    I agree that being a citizen is something that you should earn, and is a privilege. That is why I'm not against border patrol. I'm against someone who is lawful being unjustly arrested or racially profiled. That goes for more than just AZ.

    If they have "reasonable suspicion" that you might be here illegally, they could stop you outside of La Bodega.

    Where I could pull out my license (or if I wasn't a driver, my ID card that you get at the DMV)  and in the space of a minute or two show them I'm allowed to be here and go on with my day.

    I realize its not ideal....but neither is having someone search my bag when I go through the airport. And having some strange man look through the underwear in my suitcase is a LOT more violating than someone asking to see my id. But we suck it up and deal with it. How is this any different?

    (and again...I'm truly not trying to be rude, just debating)

     

    I don't think it is rude.

    I would imagine in most cases, it would go so far as being handcuffed, searched, stopped, etc. That would be so embarrassing and demeaning. Can you imagine? What if you ran to the grocery store and forgot your license? You could be arrested and detained. That isn't just flashing someone your card in a matter of a few minutes.

    Imagine if your kids were in the car with you. Those psychological effects on them.

    This is a good point. Also (and maybe kids have IDs these days, IDK)....but if you have a child with you (say a 14 yrold son) and they ask you to provide documentation, do HE have to have documentation as well? That would be far more difficult than just showing your license.

    I absolutely see your point about POs ....but I imagine they would probably be pretty careful with this....otherwise they could be facing costly lawsuits. I tend to think most POs are good officers (though I could be wrong on this...I dont personally know any)....and that this would be a minimal problem (though the fact that it would be a problem at all is cause for concern-I realize this). I would think in "most cases" it would be a simple question of proof of ID, and that would be it-that handcuffing would not be a common occurance. Obv, no one knows for sure.

    It is clear that patrolling the border is not working....so there needs to be another solution. I'm not sure this is the answer...but we've got to find A answer.

    I agree.

    As far as my experience of living in low income areas in Oakland, handcuffing normally happens with some sort of resistance. Which isn't uncommon, the resistance. If I kept on being singled out, repeatedly, I'd be resisting quick. Like I said, it is demeaning, and pride is something that often gets in the way of something simple. Also, just having the will to not feel defeated by some racist cop.



    Zuma Zoom
    image
  • image SMorriso:
    image JillianAshley6:

    image SMorriso:

    I agree that being a citizen is something that you should earn, and is a privilege. That is why I'm not against border patrol. I'm against someone who is lawful being unjustly arrested or racially profiled. That goes for more than just AZ.

    If they have "reasonable suspicion" that you might be here illegally, they could stop you outside of La Bodega.

    Where I could pull out my license (or if I wasn't a driver, my ID card that you get at the DMV)  and in the space of a minute or two show them I'm allowed to be here and go on with my day.

    I realize its not ideal....but neither is having someone search my bag when I go through the airport. And having some strange man look through the underwear in my suitcase is a LOT more violating than someone asking to see my id. But we suck it up and deal with it. How is this any different?

    (and again...I'm truly not trying to be rude, just debating)

     

    I don't think it is rude.

    I would imagine in most cases, it would go so far as being handcuffed, searched, stopped, etc. That would be so embarrassing and demeaning. Can you imagine? What if you ran to the grocery store and forgot your license? You could be arrested and detained. That isn't just flashing someone your card in a matter of a few minutes.

    Imagine if your kids were in the car with you. Those psychological effects on them.

    It is illegal to arrest someone without cause. If a person is driving without a license an officer CAN look them up in the system once the person provides information.  If they can't find them in the system - then they don't have a license - therefore, they have every right to be arrested. 

    [ <a target="_blank" title="http://tinyurl.com/972uqu" href="http://tinyurl.com/972uqu"> Jill & Doug September 6, 2009 </a> ][ <a target="_blank" title="http://lighthousediaries.blogspot.com" href="http://lighthousediaries.blogspot.com/"> The Lighthouse Diaries </a>]

    [IMG]http://i52.tinypic.com/nvdwg1.jpg[/IMG]
  • image SMorriso:
    image Nunu&Eddie:
    image SMorriso:

    I agree that being a citizen is something that you should earn, and is a privilege. That is why I'm not against border patrol. I'm against someone who is lawful being unjustly arrested or racially profiled. That goes for more than just AZ.

    If they have "reasonable suspicion" that you might be here illegally, they could stop you outside of La Bodega.

    I am pretty sure you have to be doing something illegal in order for them to approach you and ask for the papers. They can't approach you if you are walking out of a restaurant and look Mexican.  It was explained in the post prior.

    Also explained in the post below,  they are relying on police officers to be judicious in who they pull over and ask for papers. According to their police reports it could be some "reasonable reason". Not using one's blinker to change lanes, going 2 miles over the limit, etc etc.

    A lot of this can be related to the movie Crash. Because it is a pretty damn good description of racism in America, it might not be all in your face, but it is there.

    Also, I would imagine if one were pulled over when you're in a rush, just to proudly show you're American enough times, it would get tiring.

    Smo, going 2 mi. over the speed limit is a crime.  Just like being in the country illegally is a crime.  Do you think there should be some crimes that are more strictly enforced than others?  If so, how do you reconcile that under Equal Protection that is guaranteed by the 14th Amendment?  

    Not everything is about race.  This argument isn't even about race, it is about Nationality.   You could be deported under this law if you were a blonde, blue eyed person from Sweden the same way you could if you were hispanic and Mexican.  

    And yes, the justice system- whether it is enforcement by police officers or being detained or being put into prison- is frustrating.  

    What you have lost sight of is that there is a legitimate public safety issues behind the law (illegal immigrants driving without licensure and insurance,  the demands on the social programs of the state, the economic cost of illegal immigrants being here).  We don't have open borders so that the states and country can provide the services and protections to US Citizens and residents that make our country great.   

    White Knot
    Stand up for something you believe in. White Knot
  • image D74LeadinLady:
    image SMorriso:
    image JillianAshley6:

    image SMorriso:

    I agree that being a citizen is something that you should earn, and is a privilege. That is why I'm not against border patrol. I'm against someone who is lawful being unjustly arrested or racially profiled. That goes for more than just AZ.

    If they have "reasonable suspicion" that you might be here illegally, they could stop you outside of La Bodega.

    Where I could pull out my license (or if I wasn't a driver, my ID card that you get at the DMV)  and in the space of a minute or two show them I'm allowed to be here and go on with my day.

    I realize its not ideal....but neither is having someone search my bag when I go through the airport. And having some strange man look through the underwear in my suitcase is a LOT more violating than someone asking to see my id. But we suck it up and deal with it. How is this any different?

    (and again...I'm truly not trying to be rude, just debating)

     

    I don't think it is rude.

    I would imagine in most cases, it would go so far as being handcuffed, searched, stopped, etc. That would be so embarrassing and demeaning. Can you imagine? What if you ran to the grocery store and forgot your license? You could be arrested and detained. That isn't just flashing someone your card in a matter of a few minutes.

    Imagine if your kids were in the car with you. Those psychological effects on them.

    It is illegal to arrest someone without cause. If a person is driving without a license an officer CAN look them up in the system once the person provides information.  If they can't find them in the system - then they don't have a license - therefore, they have every right to be arrested. 

    It's illegal to racially profile someone too. Fourth Amendment.

    Both happen, arrest without reasonable cause and racial profling.



    Zuma Zoom
    image
  • image SMorriso:
    image D74LeadinLady:
    image SMorriso:
    image JillianAshley6:

    image SMorriso:

    I agree that being a citizen is something that you should earn, and is a privilege. That is why I'm not against border patrol. I'm against someone who is lawful being unjustly arrested or racially profiled. That goes for more than just AZ.

    If they have "reasonable suspicion" that you might be here illegally, they could stop you outside of La Bodega.

    Where I could pull out my license (or if I wasn't a driver, my ID card that you get at the DMV)  and in the space of a minute or two show them I'm allowed to be here and go on with my day.

    I realize its not ideal....but neither is having someone search my bag when I go through the airport. And having some strange man look through the underwear in my suitcase is a LOT more violating than someone asking to see my id. But we suck it up and deal with it. How is this any different?

    (and again...I'm truly not trying to be rude, just debating)

     

    I don't think it is rude.

    I would imagine in most cases, it would go so far as being handcuffed, searched, stopped, etc. That would be so embarrassing and demeaning. Can you imagine? What if you ran to the grocery store and forgot your license? You could be arrested and detained. That isn't just flashing someone your card in a matter of a few minutes.

    Imagine if your kids were in the car with you. Those psychological effects on them.

    It is illegal to arrest someone without cause. If a person is driving without a license an officer CAN look them up in the system once the person provides information.  If they can't find them in the system - then they don't have a license - therefore, they have every right to be arrested. 

    It's illegal to racially profile someone too. Fourth Amendment.

    Both happen, arrest without reasonable cause and racial profling.

    Actually, the fourth amendment says nothing about race:

    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

    Source: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/Constitution/amendment04/

    [ <a target="_blank" title="http://tinyurl.com/972uqu" href="http://tinyurl.com/972uqu"> Jill & Doug September 6, 2009 </a> ][ <a target="_blank" title="http://lighthousediaries.blogspot.com" href="http://lighthousediaries.blogspot.com/"> The Lighthouse Diaries </a>]

    [IMG]http://i52.tinypic.com/nvdwg1.jpg[/IMG]
  • image maryandkirk0909:
    image SMorriso:
    image Nunu&Eddie:
    image SMorriso:

    I agree that being a citizen is something that you should earn, and is a privilege. That is why I'm not against border patrol. I'm against someone who is lawful being unjustly arrested or racially profiled. That goes for more than just AZ.

    If they have "reasonable suspicion" that you might be here illegally, they could stop you outside of La Bodega.

    I am pretty sure you have to be doing something illegal in order for them to approach you and ask for the papers. They can't approach you if you are walking out of a restaurant and look Mexican.  It was explained in the post prior.

    Also explained in the post below,  they are relying on police officers to be judicious in who they pull over and ask for papers. According to their police reports it could be some "reasonable reason". Not using one's blinker to change lanes, going 2 miles over the limit, etc etc.

    A lot of this can be related to the movie Crash. Because it is a pretty damn good description of racism in America, it might not be all in your face, but it is there.

    Also, I would imagine if one were pulled over when you're in a rush, just to proudly show you're American enough times, it would get tiring.

    Smo, going 2 mi. over the speed limit is a crime.  Just like being in the country illegally is a crime.  Do you think there should be some crimes that are more strictly enforced than others?  If so, how do you reconcile that under Equal Protection that is guaranteed by the 14th Amendment?  

    Not everything is about race.  This argument isn't even about race, it is about Nationality.   You could be deported under this law if you were a blonde, blue eyed person from Sweden the same way you could if you were hispanic and Mexican.  

    And yes, the justice system- whether it is enforcement by police officers or being detained or being put into prison- is frustrating.  

    What you have lost sight of is that there is a legitimate public safety issues behind the law (illegal immigrants driving without licensure and insurance,  the demands on the social programs of the state, the economic cost of illegal immigrants being here).  We don't have open borders so that the states and country can provide the services and protections to US Citizens and residents that make our country great.   

    It is about race and nationality. You don't have to be Mexican to be arrested. Just look Mexican, so you can be Hispanic and be a victim of this. If we see some reports about a blond haired Scandanavian, I'll be equally upset. But if the concern is border patrol, Europe and AZ aren't really an issue.

    I really am not trying to argue for argument's sake.

    I honestly believe that there might be genuine aspects to this law. I don't believe the persons fufilling it are mostly genuine. That is my whole point.

    People of Hispanic races are going to be negatively affected by it. That is my problem with it.



    Zuma Zoom
    image
  • image D74LeadinLady:
    image SMorriso:
    image D74LeadinLady:
    image SMorriso:
    image JillianAshley6:

    image SMorriso:

    I agree that being a citizen is something that you should earn, and is a privilege. That is why I'm not against border patrol. I'm against someone who is lawful being unjustly arrested or racially profiled. That goes for more than just AZ.

    If they have "reasonable suspicion" that you might be here illegally, they could stop you outside of La Bodega.

    Where I could pull out my license (or if I wasn't a driver, my ID card that you get at the DMV)  and in the space of a minute or two show them I'm allowed to be here and go on with my day.

    I realize its not ideal....but neither is having someone search my bag when I go through the airport. And having some strange man look through the underwear in my suitcase is a LOT more violating than someone asking to see my id. But we suck it up and deal with it. How is this any different?

    (and again...I'm truly not trying to be rude, just debating)

     

    I don't think it is rude.

    I would imagine in most cases, it would go so far as being handcuffed, searched, stopped, etc. That would be so embarrassing and demeaning. Can you imagine? What if you ran to the grocery store and forgot your license? You could be arrested and detained. That isn't just flashing someone your card in a matter of a few minutes.

    Imagine if your kids were in the car with you. Those psychological effects on them.

    It is illegal to arrest someone without cause. If a person is driving without a license an officer CAN look them up in the system once the person provides information.  If they can't find them in the system - then they don't have a license - therefore, they have every right to be arrested. 

    It's illegal to racially profile someone too. Fourth Amendment.

    Both happen, arrest without reasonable cause and racial profling.

    Actually, the fourth amendment says nothing about race:

    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

    Source: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/Constitution/amendment04/

    Searching someone's car, or pulling them over to do so because of their race is NOT reasonable. Racial profiling is covered by this law, because it isn't a 'reasonable' enough reason to stop, arrest, harass an American citizen.

    The Fourth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution guarantees the right to be safe from unreasonable search and seizure without probable cause. Since the majority of people of all races are law-abiding citizens, merely being of a race which a police officer believes to be more likely to commit a crime than another is not probable cause.



    Zuma Zoom
    image
  • image SMorriso:
    image D74LeadinLady:
    image SMorriso:
    image D74LeadinLady:
    image SMorriso:
    image JillianAshley6:

    image SMorriso:

    I agree that being a citizen is something that you should earn, and is a privilege. That is why I'm not against border patrol. I'm against someone who is lawful being unjustly arrested or racially profiled. That goes for more than just AZ.

    If they have "reasonable suspicion" that you might be here illegally, they could stop you outside of La Bodega.

    Where I could pull out my license (or if I wasn't a driver, my ID card that you get at the DMV)  and in the space of a minute or two show them I'm allowed to be here and go on with my day.

    I realize its not ideal....but neither is having someone search my bag when I go through the airport. And having some strange man look through the underwear in my suitcase is a LOT more violating than someone asking to see my id. But we suck it up and deal with it. How is this any different?

    (and again...I'm truly not trying to be rude, just debating)

     

    I don't think it is rude.

    I would imagine in most cases, it would go so far as being handcuffed, searched, stopped, etc. That would be so embarrassing and demeaning. Can you imagine? What if you ran to the grocery store and forgot your license? You could be arrested and detained. That isn't just flashing someone your card in a matter of a few minutes.

    Imagine if your kids were in the car with you. Those psychological effects on them.

    It is illegal to arrest someone without cause. If a person is driving without a license an officer CAN look them up in the system once the person provides information.  If they can't find them in the system - then they don't have a license - therefore, they have every right to be arrested. 

    It's illegal to racially profile someone too. Fourth Amendment.

    Both happen, arrest without reasonable cause and racial profling.

    Actually, the fourth amendment says nothing about race:

    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

    Source: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/Constitution/amendment04/

    Searching someone's car, or pulling them over to do so because of their race is NOT reasonable. Racial profiling is covered by this law, because it isn't a 'reasonable' enough reason to stop, arrest, harass an American citizen.

    The Fourth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution guarantees the right to be safe from unreasonable search and seizure without probable cause. Since the majority of people of all races are law-abiding citizens, merely being of a race which a police officer believes to be more likely to commit a crime than another is not probable cause.

    And if they're behaving perfectly legally, a plaintiff who is pulled over and detained for nothing other than being an illegal immigrant will have a habeas corpus cause of action they can bring in front of the Supreme Court.  End of story.  

    And don't say they won't be able to because if the Guantanamo detainees can do it, illegal immigrants in Arizona sure as hell can.     

    ETA: I don't understand why you're championing the cause of not only someone who is living in the country illegally, but also engaging in some other illegal activity which leads to their arrest and deportation.  

    Believe me, I get people needing constitutional rights, but when you're not entitled to them because you're not a citizen, I don't think you should get their protections.  

    White Knot
    Stand up for something you believe in. White Knot
  • image SMorriso:

    Searching someone's car, or pulling them over to do so because of their race is NOT reasonable. Racial profiling is covered by this law, because it isn't a 'reasonable' enough reason to stop, arrest, harass an American citizen.

    The Fourth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution guarantees the right to be safe from unreasonable search and seizure without probable cause. Since the majority of people of all races are law-abiding citizens, merely being of a race which a police officer believes to be more likely to commit a crime than another is not probable cause.

    Yeah, but - no one said they were going to be pulling people over because they looked like they were Mexican. They're going to be pulled over because they did something which BROKE THE LAW and they'll be asked to provide documentation. In some cases are there going to Mexicans? Yes. Are there going to be some cases where they are african americans or asians? You betcha! Are there going to be other situations where they are white? OF COURSE!

    [ <a target="_blank" title="http://tinyurl.com/972uqu" href="http://tinyurl.com/972uqu"> Jill & Doug September 6, 2009 </a> ][ <a target="_blank" title="http://lighthousediaries.blogspot.com" href="http://lighthousediaries.blogspot.com/"> The Lighthouse Diaries </a>]

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  • image JillianAshley6:
    image Nunu&Eddie:

    Jillian- Children born in the US are legal citizens, even if born to illegal parents.

    In the case I mentioned before with the man from my Church, his wife was allowed to stay as a permanent resident to raise their children who had ben born here.

    And, again, we don't know how this will affect the racial profiling, if at all. So that is just an argument on speculation.

    Oh, I realize this....but I guess my point was....and young people going to be expected to provide proof of citizenship (because they too could possibly be here illegally)? And if so, how do they do it? Its not smart to carry around a birth certificate....so are IDs available to younger citizens? Just curious.


    Lots of kids now have to wear school IDs.  I'd imagine that in order to enroll your child in school you need a birth cert, SS Card, proof of residency, whatever.  So, I'd say most cops would probably accept a school ID for kids under 18. 

    White Knot
    Stand up for something you believe in. White Knot
  • image maryandkirk0909:

    Not everything is about race.  This argument isn't even about race, it is about Nationality.   You could be deported under this law if you were a blonde, blue eyed person from Sweden the same way you could if you were hispanic and Mexican.  

    And yes, the justice system- whether it is enforcement by police officers or being detained or being put into prison- is frustrating.  

    What you have lost sight of is that there is a legitimate public safety issues behind the law (illegal immigrants driving without licensure and insurance,  the demands on the social programs of the state, the economic cost of illegal immigrants being here).  We don't have open borders so that the states and country can provide the services and protections to US Citizens and residents that make our country great.   

    I don't think anyone is saying that illegal immigration isn't a problem, that nothing should be done about it.  It is a problem, but this law sucks.  And honestly, yes a blonde blue eyed person who is here illegally can be detained, but what cop is going to suspect that person of being here illegally?  Most likely, that person won't get asked for proof of citizenship.

    [] <a href="http://comfypajamas.wordpress.com">Blog</a> [] EDD: 05.19.2012


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  • image D74LeadinLady:
    Yeah, but - no one said they were going to be pulling people over because they looked like they were Mexican. They're going to be pulled over because they did something which BROKE THE LAW and they'll be asked to provide documentation. In some cases are there going to Mexicans? Yes. Are there going to be some cases where they are african americans or asians? You betcha! Are there going to be other situations where they are white? OF COURSE!

    Most racist cops/people hide under the pretenses of doing something minimally justifiable. Their underlying reason are racism. I don't know how else to say it.

    White American citizens are more likely to commit traffic violations and not get stopped vs. Hispanic Americans or illegal immigrants. The Hispanic Americans will have done the same as the White Americans, but they are assumed to be illegal, even when they're not.

    Which in some cases as people have mentioned, they'd gladly take the inconvenience and possible humiliation (multiple times) of facing that fact and showing ID to satisfy the police enforcement.

    This is getting circular and pointless to continue.



    Zuma Zoom
    image
  • image heyxu:
    image maryandkirk0909:

    Not everything is about race.  This argument isn't even about race, it is about Nationality.   You could be deported under this law if you were a blonde, blue eyed person from Sweden the same way you could if you were hispanic and Mexican.  

    And yes, the justice system- whether it is enforcement by police officers or being detained or being put into prison- is frustrating.  

    What you have lost sight of is that there is a legitimate public safety issues behind the law (illegal immigrants driving without licensure and insurance,  the demands on the social programs of the state, the economic cost of illegal immigrants being here).  We don't have open borders so that the states and country can provide the services and protections to US Citizens and residents that make our country great.   

    I don't think anyone is saying that illegal immigration isn't a problem, that nothing should be done about it.  It is a problem, but this law sucks.  And honestly, yes a blonde blue eyed person who is here illegally can be detained, but what cop is going to suspect that person of being here illegally?  Most likely, that person won't get asked for proof of citizenship.

    That would be only if they weren't doing anything illegal.  There is a specific prerequisite in the law that the person must cause reasonable suspicion of something illegal going on--- so if that Swedish woman is driving 5 miles over the speed limit she's going to be asked for a driver's license and insurance just like everyone else.

    It is a misconception that you're going to have to supply all kinds of paperwork, etc.  It is as simple as a driver's license proving you have appropriate documentation to obtain one.  Therefore, I see a lot of people of all different ranges in the net this law casts- not just Hispanics.   

    White Knot
    Stand up for something you believe in. White Knot
  • image SMorriso:
    image D74LeadinLady:
    Yeah, but - no one said they were going to be pulling people over because they looked like they were Mexican. They're going to be pulled over because they did something which BROKE THE LAW and they'll be asked to provide documentation. In some cases are there going to Mexicans? Yes. Are there going to be some cases where they are african americans or asians? You betcha! Are there going to be other situations where they are white? OF COURSE!

    Most racist cops/people hide under the pretenses of doing something minimally justifiable. Their underlying reason are racism. I don't know how else to say it.

    White American citizens are more likely to commit traffic violations and not get stopped vs. Hispanic Americans or illegal immigrants. The Hispanic Americans will have done the same as the White Americans, but they are assumed to be illegal, even when they're not.

    Which in some cases as people have mentioned, they'd gladly take the inconvenience and possible humiliation (multiple times) of facing that fact and showing ID to satisfy the police enforcement.

    This is getting circular and pointless to continue.

    But what you are complaining about here are crooked or racist cops, and not the law. The law, again, is no different than the practices that were already done in AZ and in other states.

    image
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  • image SMorriso:
    image D74LeadinLady:
    Yeah, but - no one said they were going to be pulling people over because they looked like they were Mexican. They're going to be pulled over because they did something which BROKE THE LAW and they'll be asked to provide documentation. In some cases are there going to Mexicans? Yes. Are there going to be some cases where they are african americans or asians? You betcha! Are there going to be other situations where they are white? OF COURSE!

    Most racist cops/people hide under the pretenses of doing something minimally justifiable. Their underlying reason are racism. I don't know how else to say it.

    White American citizens are more likely to commit traffic violations and not get stopped vs. Hispanic Americans or illegal immigrants. The Hispanic Americans will have done the same as the White Americans, but they are assumed to be illegal, even when they're not.

    Which in some cases as people have mentioned, they'd gladly take the inconvenience and possible humiliation (multiple times) of facing that fact and showing ID to satisfy the police enforcement.

    This is getting circular and pointless to continue.

    Was this from a study that was conducted?

    [ <a target="_blank" title="http://tinyurl.com/972uqu" href="http://tinyurl.com/972uqu"> Jill & Doug September 6, 2009 </a> ][ <a target="_blank" title="http://lighthousediaries.blogspot.com" href="http://lighthousediaries.blogspot.com/"> The Lighthouse Diaries </a>]

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  • image maryandkirk0909:
    image heyxu:
    image maryandkirk0909:

    Not everything is about race.  This argument isn't even about race, it is about Nationality.   You could be deported under this law if you were a blonde, blue eyed person from Sweden the same way you could if you were hispanic and Mexican.  

    And yes, the justice system- whether it is enforcement by police officers or being detained or being put into prison- is frustrating.  

    What you have lost sight of is that there is a legitimate public safety issues behind the law (illegal immigrants driving without licensure and insurance,  the demands on the social programs of the state, the economic cost of illegal immigrants being here).  We don't have open borders so that the states and country can provide the services and protections to US Citizens and residents that make our country great.   

    I don't think anyone is saying that illegal immigration isn't a problem, that nothing should be done about it.  It is a problem, but this law sucks.  And honestly, yes a blonde blue eyed person who is here illegally can be detained, but what cop is going to suspect that person of being here illegally?  Most likely, that person won't get asked for proof of citizenship.

    That would be only if they weren't doing anything illegal.  There is a specific prerequisite in the law that the person must cause reasonable suspicion of something illegal going on--- so if that Swedish woman is driving 5 miles over the speed limit she's going to be asked for a driver's license and insurance just like everyone else.

    It is a misconception that you're going to have to supply all kinds of paperwork, etc.  It is as simple as a driver's license proving you have appropriate documentation to obtain one.  Therefore, I see a lot of people of all different ranges in the net this law casts- not just Hispanics.   

    If that is true that they had to have done/doing something illegal prior to showing showing proof then I stand corrected.  However, I read that if an officer had reasonable suspicion that a person is an illegal alien, then that is sufficient enough to ask for proof of citizenship.

    Yes, I know that a driver's license is sufficient.

    [] <a href="http://comfypajamas.wordpress.com">Blog</a> [] EDD: 05.19.2012


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  • What's annoying the hell out of me is that you (Smo) are automatically assuming that White Americans across the board are getting away with murder, while Hispanic Americans, African Americans, etc are getting pulled over for the most minimal of traffic violations... well let me tell you a story.

    Once upon a time I lived in Prince George's County, Maryland, where the racial spread is 

    • 62.70% African American
    • 27.04% White
    • 7.12% Hispanic or Latino
    • 3.87% Asian
    • 3.38% Other races
    • 2.61% Two or More of any race
    • 0.35% Native American
    • 0.06% Pacific Islander
     
    Let me tell you about racial profiling.  I never had more traffic "violations" than when I was living in PG County.  The worst was when I was on my way to work one morning, and an African American officer stopped me for "following too close" behind the car in front of me.  Not only was he rude enough to bring me to tears, but he had the audacity to accuse me of drinking at 7:30am, and even made me prove it to him via a sobriety test, and STILL give me a $100 ticket on top of that, and made me over an hour late for work.
     
    This works ALL ways, my dear.... racism is colorblind. 
  • image SMorriso:
    image D74LeadinLady:
    Yeah, but - no one said they were going to be pulling people over because they looked like they were Mexican. They're going to be pulled over because they did something which BROKE THE LAW and they'll be asked to provide documentation. In some cases are there going to Mexicans? Yes. Are there going to be some cases where they are african americans or asians? You betcha! Are there going to be other situations where they are white? OF COURSE!

    Most racist cops/people hide under the pretenses of doing something minimally justifiable. Their underlying reason are racism. I don't know how else to say it.

    White American citizens are more likely to commit traffic violations and not get stopped vs. Hispanic Americans or illegal immigrants. The Hispanic Americans will have done the same as the White Americans, but they are assumed to be illegal, even when they're not.

    Which in some cases as people have mentioned, they'd gladly take the inconvenience and possible humiliation (multiple times) of facing that fact and showing ID to satisfy the police enforcement.

    This is getting circular and pointless to continue.

    Once again, if someone is doing nothing illegal at all, their illegal immigrant status cannot be used as rationale to detain them.  Their immigration status would be something discovered by an illegal search, and therefore inadmissible in court.  If you're looking to google, this is called "The Fruit of the Poisonous Tree" doctrine.  

    White Knot
    Stand up for something you believe in. White Knot
  • [] <a href="http://comfypajamas.wordpress.com">Blog</a> [] EDD: 05.19.2012


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  • image MrsMcC091909:

    What's annoying the hell out of me is that you (Smo) are automatically assuming that White Americans across the board are getting away with murder, while Hispanic Americans, African Americans, etc are getting pulled over for the most minimal of traffic violations... well let me tell you a story.

    Once upon a time I lived in Prince George's County, Maryland, where the racial spread is 

    • 62.70% African American
    • 27.04% White
    • 7.12% Hispanic or Latino
    • 3.87% Asian
    • 3.38% Other races
    • 2.61% Two or More of any race
    • 0.35% Native American
    • 0.06% Pacific Islander
     
    Let me tell you about racial profiling.  I never had more traffic "violations" than when I was living in PG County.  The worst was when I was on my way to work one morning, and an African American officer stopped me for "following too close" behind the car in front of me.  Not only was he rude enough to bring me to tears, but he had the audacity to accuse me of drinking at 7:30am, and even made me prove it to him via a sobriety test, and STILL give me a $100 ticket on top of that, and made me over an hour late for work.
     
    This works ALL ways, my dear.... racism is colorblind. 

    I am not assuming, MB, that all white people are getting away with murder. In this specific area, they are less likely to be targeted because they are white. I also agree that racism is ironically colorblind, and goes in every direction. In your case, I would be pissed too. There is no need for the cop to be rude. I'm sorry you went through that.

    Police are enforcers fo the law. They aren't always practicing that in equality. This law allows for more targets against Hispanics. Again, my point is that they might be doing the same illegal thing that is often overlooked and that violation will be used to instigate racial profiling.

    Jill  - This site is pretty good for information... not all, but a good amount.

    http://www.racialprofilinganalysis.neu.edu/

     

     



    Zuma Zoom
    image
  • image SMorriso:
    image maryandkirk0909:
    image heyxu:
    image Nunu&Eddie:

    But to me, racial profiling by law enforcement has always existed. And not just in Arizona. We had a member of our Church get deported because he was working on the side of a street, a cop saw him, and asked for papers. Had he been white, the cop probably would have never stopped. He is Mexican.

    And the problem I have with the uproar, is that no one is suggesting any better wording or alternative that addresses the problem of illegal immigration without leaving the doors open for racial profiling.

    I get that, and it's true.  But this law pretty much makes it legal to racially profile.

    While it doesn't bring much to the conversation, I don't see a problem criticizing a law when you can't come up with an alternative.

    Do you think that current laws don't basically allow racial profiling?

    I guarantee you if you were an African American teenager/ in your early 20s driving around in certain neighborhoods in DC on any given night you'd be pulled over.  Doesn't matter for what, it would happen.  Police in the region where you live right now do it.  

    I think that is part of the problem. It is rampant throughout the country. If 75% of the country is white, yet minorities are the majority in prisons in the country. Something is off. Is it just because we're easily profiled? Or because the assumption that a minority must be mixed up into something bad just because of their race?

     

     

    In the state of california "white" people are the minorities. In fact where i live we have the largest population of Eastern Indian people on this side of the us. We also have a large group of asian and even larger group of Mexican and latinos. I don't consider myself racisist but please don't say that most poeple in prision are not "white" My husband is a State correctional officer and there are equal amounts of all ethnicities. Yes depending on which prision one is at there maybe a different amount of one or the other, but it is unfair to say that that "white" people have no problems.

     

      Last summer i was not hired for a job that i was in fact very much so qualified for becuase i was "white" It was an open interview. The interviewers where both african american. I was in a group of one other "white" woman  a latino man and an african american man. I was dressed the most professional of all them, no one else had a resume, the latino had on jeans and a nice shirt, the other "white" woman was dressed rather poorly in an old pair of tan slacks and top, the african american man who had never heard of the business before was wearing a football jersey and baggy jeans. the other "white" woman was dismissed very quickly. I was the only one who knew anything about the business, i was told i was not qualified for even the lowest position there, the other two were hired as management! I went to this business not to long ago.....not one "white" person amoung 50 or 60 employees. My point is Everyone assumes that racial profiling is only aganist everyone else but "white" people and the truth is....that is happens to everyone. Its not okay for a white person to say a "so and so is a black person" but everyone calls "white" people "white". Our world is so set on what color everyone skin is that we forget to realize that regardless we are all people and the same. what people don't know is that i may look as "white" as it gets, but some where down the line.....one of my realitves was and african american, native american, an irish man, amoung others....

       Is the law fair...no prob not....how do you make it fair in an unfair world...you don't someone always gets hurt. But it is unfair to think that it doesn't happen to everyone. 

    and "white" people are caucasian

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